Curse

Abnaxus · Mar 13, 2007, 11:28 AM // 11:28

I like all my chars, have finished 3 campaigns with the 6 core classes, Cantha with rit+sin and Elona with derv, but if I have to say which class I enjoy to play more I would probably choose the mesmer.

It's challenging, but when it comes to the highest level mobs and bosses, those which can reap your party in a couple of spells, or heal themselves until all give up and ragequit, that's the moment in which mesmers shine above all other classes.
My best satisfaction in Elona was to shut down Shiro (MoI + SoM) allowing the rest of the party (with no human monks) to get master like a walk in the park, receiving the grats from players who had been there for 1 week and were thinking to leave the game.

That said, the only buff I would like to see is something in the recharge of spells, especially interrupts.

It has been said that rangers can interrupt better than mesmers and make damage. This is only partially true (it needs more timing and the right bow) and spells like Power Spike, although only working on spells, can do really significant damage.

The problem I see is in the long recharge of interrupting skills.

My suggestion is to reduce the recharge time, let's say by 50%, when you successfully interrupt, and leave the normal recharge time when you fail.
For instance, there could be an ispiration stance like "for XX seconds, whenever you use a skill that succesfully interrupts your target, that skill recharges in 50% of time".

Deleet · Mar 13, 2007, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obey The Cat

If mesmer was fine, more people would pick him, not only 1%.

No?
That's like saying that X religion is better than Z religion, because it has more believers.

MSecorsky · Mar 13, 2007, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Abaddon mission last night... two Paragons, a warrior, a ranger, an assassin and myself, a mesmer, with two hero monks.

Masters.

ANet doesn't need to change anything. It's peoples perceptions of what makes a winning team that needs to change.

the_jos · Mar 13, 2007, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Mesmers have one advantage that the interrupters from other classes don't have.
Mesmers have skills that can shut down the spell the moment it's cast.
That's 100% guaranteed interrupt, if you know what you are doing.
It's not that good on Meteor Shower, but on fast-casting spells (anything below 1 second) it's probably more efective than a ranger interrupt.

Quote:

The problem I see is in the long recharge of interrupting skills.

You have an Elite in Fast Casting that can help with that.

Sol_Vie · Mar 13, 2007, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Abaddon mission last night... two Paragons, a warrior, a ranger, an assassin and myself, a mesmer, with two hero monks.

Masters.

ANet doesn't need to change anything. It's peoples perceptions of what makes a winning team that needs to change.

Isn't that the truth. Unfortunately, that'll probably never happen.

Cineris · Mar 13, 2007, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

No?
That's like saying that X religion is better than Z religion, because it has more believers.

Not really. Your analogy is weak.

Most people who play games have some conception of the mechanics of those games and will play classes that most closely approach a given gameplay goal. Especially in a game with quick and easy character turnover and little to no roleplaying elements to otherwise affect your character choices, it doesn't make sense to continue playing a character that doesn't fit your desired playstyle(s).

People who practice a religion don't usually do so because of some self min-maxing proposition that being a Boddhisattva will give them better powers than being a Catholic Saint (or vice versa).

noblepaladin · Mar 14, 2007, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Abaddon mission last night... two Paragons, a warrior, a ranger, an assassin and myself, a mesmer, with two hero monks.

Masters.

ANet doesn't need to change anything. It's peoples perceptions of what makes a winning team that needs to change.

It's actually very easy to get masters with any Hero/Hench team, GuildWiki has a pretty good guide. Two days ago I did the mission in under 10 minutes (20 minutes is master) with my Mesmer and Hero/Hench. In fact, the Mesmer actually has one of the highest DPS against Abaddon. I just used the fact that Abaddon does not run from AoE and then just spammed Wastrels Worry (hex wears off instantly) and Chaos Storm for ridiculous amounts of armor ignoring DPS. Everybody knows that a Mesmer dominates the 1 on 1 matchup. The problem is 99% of PvE is 1 against a shitload of enemies.

Avarre made a good argument about how the effectiveness of characters scale with the number of enemies. Elementalists, Barrage rangers, MMs, and the conventional builds grow in strength when there are more enemies (a fireball may deal 100 damage against one enemy, but when there are two, it does 100 damage to each, totaling to 200 damage). A tank also has similar scaling. A warrior can tank 1 enemy or 5 enemies, he just has to run in first and he does his job of preventing his allies from getting hit. The Mesmer efficiency does not scale (if a Mesmer can only shut down 1 enemy, and there are two of them, then the mesmer can still only shut down one of them). Considering that 99% of PvE is about killing large mobs, it is far more effective to bring four searing flames elementalists, a MM, a tank, and two healers than to have a diversified group (such as one with a Mesmer doing shutdown on the enemy monk). Those elementalists will usually kill groups instantly after all the searing flames go off.

Of course a smart Mesmer is better than an incompetent elementalist or warrior. And stupid groups will often have alot of problems that a mesmer can fix. But any reasonably experienced group will know how to handle unusual situations (ex: The Kraken in Factions was a very difficult boss for many players when they first played that mission. A lot of teams ask for interrupters, but I just added Skull Crack to my tank and it became very easy, dazed is better than any mesmer interrupt. I also beat that mission with a Barrager w/ concussion shot on my ranger. Any of the holy trinity (nuker, tank, healer) can adapt to situations and handle them well, while still playing their role.

It's definitely possible to include Mesmers and even to do crazy builds. I can beat the game with 9 attributes in fire instead of 16, and still play a decent nuker. However, if I am looking for the easiest, and most efficient way to do it, I won't handicap myself. Unfortunately, Mesmers (and Assassins, Dervishes, Ritualists, and Paragons for the most part) cannot contribute much. Almost all their skills are designed for PvP exclusively and they lack skills that take advantage of the poor AI. Skills that scale with enemy numbers. Skills that all of the Holy Trinity have.

Redfeather1975 · Mar 14, 2007, 06:33 AM // 06:33

One of the things that make inquisitors in Everquest useful is that they synergize well with melee classes because they can buff attack speed and caster's intelligence. The inquisitor can't heal better than the other priests, their group dps buffing is what's make them over other priests when the group setup is a certain way.

I'm wondering if mesmers are given support abilities that help buff the group's casting speed, or even attack speed, that they'll be a lot more wanted in PVE. Are there any professions that buff groups attack and casting speeds?

Avarre · Mar 14, 2007, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Mesmers have one advantage that the interrupters from other classes don't have.
Mesmers have skills that can shut down the spell the moment it's cast.
That's 100% guaranteed interrupt, if you know what you are doing.
It's not that good on Meteor Shower, but on fast-casting spells (anything below 1 second) it's probably more efective than a ranger interrupt.

How many <1 skills are dangerous enough that the casting of one can break your team? The only benefit of mistrust is the damage (quite a nice skill for that) - most mob packs have enough monsters and spells to not care about one interrupted skill. Not to mention Rangers can simply apply dazes and interrupt AoE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

ANet doesn't need to change anything. It's peoples perceptions of what makes a winning team that needs to change.

You mean the perception of a winning team as one that wins? Completing PvE isn't a victory, anyone can do that. Completing it as fast as possible repeatably (if needed) is. As noblepaladin brought up, your reference is flawed anyway.

I finished Torc'qua with two mesmers and a ranger (1 ele in group total). It wasn't hard. However, the Mesmers were keyed to pseudo-ele setups, with glyphed/promised dom AoE. Even so, it took far longer than the teams that clear all four areas in succession would have needed for City, because damage was less efficient. If the shutdown effects and conditional damage hexes weren't co-ordinated properly, nothing even happened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

Are there any professions that buff groups attack and casting speeds?

Aggressive Refrain on Paragons boosts attack speed, I believe.

Utaku · Mar 14, 2007, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Aggressive Refrain on Paragons boosts attack speed, I believe.

It's on self only. It would be insane if you could target ally with this, as it's very very easy to maintain this IAS for a whole exploration zone with a couple chants/shouts.

MSecorsky · Mar 14, 2007, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

You mean the perception of a winning team as one that wins? Completing PvE isn't a victory, anyone can do that. Completing it as fast as possible repeatably (if needed) is. As noblepaladin brought up, your reference is flawed anyway.

No, no... I mean the perception that you have to have the generic W/E/Mo groups to win. Even the mission with Shiro and the Lich we went in as a random PuG taking whomever and still mastered it. Nearly any mix can succeed when well driven.

Regarding a mesmers DPS as numbers increase... that depends on the build. You should see what a mesmer with Hex Vortex and Shatter Hex does for damage over numbers. You'll see a helluva lot of -142s flying in the air.

It's pretty.

Braggi · Mar 14, 2007, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Regarding a mesmers DPS as numbers increase... that depends on the build. You should see what a mesmer with Hex Vortex and Shatter Hex does for damage over numbers. You'll see a helluva lot of -142s flying in the air.

It's pretty.

That's nice, but I have some caveats:
at dom 16, damage should be 126 each. Hex Eater Vortex is an elite late into NF. You need 2 conditions - a hexed ally, who must also be close to a bunch of foes (casters usually spread out anyway).

But it's situational again. You look good against hexes; encounter a warrior/ ranger group, and your elite is toast, as is your caster hate... What Avarre calls "the trinity" usually works unconditional.

the_jos · Mar 14, 2007, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

How many <1 skills are dangerous enough that the casting of one can break your team? The only benefit of mistrust is the damage (quite a nice skill for that) - most mob packs have enough monsters and spells to not care about one interrupted skill. Not to mention Rangers can simply apply dazes and interrupt AoE.

There are indeed not that many skills that are < 1 and dangerous.
Mistrust is a decent spell, but I was also thinking about Shame.
It's usefull in (somewhat coordinated) PvE if you want to make sure the monk enemy will not heal the dieing target (but then, that would only give the enemy about 5 seconds extra life).

I was also thinking about the daze ranger, but that one has two conditions.
He/she must use an elite slot.
Or must interrupt a skill at 25 base energy (I think that's the cost of Conc. shot).
I know Daze > caster, but other elites (like burning arrow) might be worth the elite slot over broad head.

Avarre · Mar 14, 2007, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

No, no... I mean the perception that you have to have the generic W/E/Mo groups to win. Even the mission with Shiro and the Lich we went in as a random PuG taking whomever and still mastered it. Nearly any mix can succeed when well driven.

Nobody said you needed that group to finish an area. The combo can 'win' because it can finish the areas better. It will remain the most effective combo for the most part, however, which means less player capability is required. Perceptions or not, the path of least resistance is what people will travel, and that means the most mindless and effective setup. PvE is easy, and group composition barely matters for success - my entire issue is that there isn't any point 'downgrading' your group by including a class that is less effective than others.

Quote:

Regarding a mesmers DPS as numbers increase... that depends on the build. You should see what a mesmer with Hex Vortex and Shatter Hex does for damage over numbers. You'll see a helluva lot of -142s flying in the air.

It's pretty.

Fun how you tell me that as if I don't play Mesmer, and forget that I mentioned in two seperate posts that Shatter Hex was one of the rare few exceptions in the Mesmer line that functioned as capable DPS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Mistrust is a decent spell, but I was also thinking about Shame.
It's usefull in (somewhat coordinated) PvE if you want to make sure the monk enemy will not heal the dieing target (but then, that would only give the enemy about 5 seconds extra life).

Shame only cancels the spell being cast at the cost of energy, meaning the mob could simply recast the spell with their near to limitless energy pool. Overall Backfire would be better for your aims - nullifying heals on the caster itself while AoE's took out the health of the group. Mistrust works nicely because of the AoE - Guilt I might run for energy return on a full dom bar.

Broadhead-epidemic is a nice combo, worth the elite slot. If you can pull it off with conc-epidemic-barrage, that works as well. SMS 3-manned FoW relying on a Skull Crack warrior to daze the monk (before the change in SC's attack speed), so it's not impossible with a player that gets a feel for enemy casting patterns.

Dutch Masterr · Mar 15, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

i love my mesmer in any form of PvE and PvP. they are great everywhere, and anyone that really knows how to play guild wars will always take a mesmer into their group. sadly, most of the mesmers i allow into my groups are either fast cast nukers (which suck to beging with) or they just have no idea how to play a mesmer.

people may not like mesmers (in pve) because when they are in a group, the rest of the group usually does not notice how much the mesmer is actually contributing. this is unlike a warrior because their frontline and always in sight, or an elementalist with the big flashy skills. in my opinion, a mesmer's job in pve is to make what the group is fighting easier to kill by either inteupting important skills, disabling certain professions or spreading degen througout a group and etc..

Avarre · Mar 15, 2007, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch Masterr

people may not like mesmers (in pve) because when they are in a group, the rest of the group usually does not notice how much the mesmer is actually contributing. this is unlike a warrior because their frontline and always in sight, or an elementalist with the big flashy skills. in my opinion, a mesmer's job in pve is to make what the group is fighting easier to kill by either inteupting important skills, disabling certain professions or spreading degen througout a group and etc..

Degen is -20hp/s, and takes 2-3 skills on a single target to accomplish. That is about as much DPS as an autoattacking physical character that isn't using skills.

As mentioned many, many times before, interrupting key skills is better done by Rangers that can interrupt more constantly, on a broader range of skills. Not to mention Meteor Shower can interrupt too. ANet outdid theirself by also giving EVERY CLASS IN THE GAME a Cry (Lightbringer's Gaze) that can be used for AoE interrupting towards the endgame, removing one of the advantages of the Mesmer (interrupt the first salvo of damage with a Cry).

Making the Mesmer's skills 'flashier' might bring more into groups, but doesn't fix alot of problems with the class itself.

LONGA · Mar 15, 2007, 01:37 AM // 01:37

I think Mesmer skill should be more usability for each of them.Thinking about [skill]Overload[/skill] and [skill]Wastrel's Demise[/skill]

Even on 16 DoM Overload skill a crap skill on non caster.While Wastre'sl Demise do a bit lower damge than intened becuse most monster doesnt run a full skill bar.

And with the recent nerf.If you ever fight roaring ether you can see how much stronger this monster was.

For the Illusion line I think its ok for PvE the skill still can pretty good if you can work out with the team

xDusT II · Mar 15, 2007, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Degen is -20hp/s, and takes 2-3 skills on a single target to accomplish. That is about as much DPS as an autoattacking physical character that isn't using skills.

As mentioned many, many times before, interrupting key skills is better done by Rangers that can interrupt more constantly, on a broader range of skills. Not to mention Meteor Shower can interrupt too. ANet outdid theirself by also giving EVERY CLASS IN THE GAME a Cry (Lightbringer's Gaze) that can be used for AoE interrupting towards the endgame, removing one of the advantages of the Mesmer (interrupt the first salvo of damage with a Cry).

Making the Mesmer's skills 'flashier' might bring more into groups, but doesn't fix alot of problems with the class itself.

Illusion of Pain is a great skill for quickly putting 10 degen on someone and if your group can't kill an enemy before it expires (Which can be extended with mantra of perssitence) then there's something wrong.
Also CoF is still a quarter second cast making it a better interrupt than gaze, which is only useful in a few areas of the game.

I do agree that mesmers need more "crowd control" AoEDoT snares, more AoE attacks, more spammability etc

Avarre · Mar 15, 2007, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Illusion of Pain deals 20 damage per second. Combined with MoP, that's two skills for 20 dps. Not exactly awe inspiring against monsters that have 600-1000 life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDusT II

Also CoF is still a quarter second cast making it a better interrupt than gaze, which is only useful in a few areas of the game.

Quite simply, the only areas it is useful in are the only areas that pose a threat. Some of the biggest dangers to groups are things like the Rain of Terror water spikes - all composed of skills much longer than 1s cast. When you only need to halt the first salvo until your full group firepower hits, you aren't going to be halting pinpoint attacks but blocking group DeepFreezes and the like.

Furthermore, I already mentioned there is an exception in places like Urgoz Warren with a large number of caster mobs, where Cry is useful. An exception - not a rule. Cry can be brought by anyone, after all, as the dom spec makes little difference to the point of the skill.

An AoEDoT snare would make sense, if PvE wasn't largely composed of fighting static packs of mobs where mobility is rarely an issue... and if DoT hexes didn't do nearly nothing compared to damage in terms of the time required to bring down a full group. Perhaps it would be helpful to keep monsters in AoE attacks, but if that were the case groups would bring water snares (actually not sure of this, do people bring these?) - which would fit better onto Eles anyway.

Pwny Ride · Mar 15, 2007, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by LONGA

I think Mesmer skill should be more usability for each of them.Thinking about [skill]Overload[/skill] and [skill]Wastrel's Demise[/skill]

Even on 16 DoM Overload skill a crap skill on non caster.While Wastre'sl Demise do a bit lower damge than intened becuse most monster doesnt run a full skill bar.

And with the recent nerf.If you ever fight roaring ether you can see how much stronger this monster was.

For the Illusion line I think its ok for PvE the skill still can pretty good if you can work out with the team

I would KILL for a bit of an overload buff

But regarless, i know that many people are saying 'mesmers dont NEED a buff', but you have to admit it would be nice for them to be buffed a little, to balance the infinite nerfs that they've had to deal with